Barack Obama photo

Interview with Tim Russert on NBC News' "Meet the Press"

December 30, 2007

RUSSERT: And we're back. Here are the very latest MSNBC/McClatchy polling numbers for the Democrats in Iowa. Edwards, 24; Clinton, 23; Obama, 22; Richardson, 12; Biden, 8.

Welcome back to MEET THE PRESS, Senator Obama. Close race. There you are. You slipped a few points into third place. What--can you react to that? How do you react to that?

OBAMA: Well, you know, I've been just coming off, you know, a tour of eastern Iowa. We are seeing unbelievable crowds. Every single place we go, crowds that are two, three times what we're seeing in, in some of the other campaigns, so we know the enthusiasm is there, the energy is there. We have as good of an organization, I think, as people have ever seen in Iowa. And this is going to be a tight race, and I think the polls are going to be bouncing up and down over the next five days. But what we're confident about is that, if our folks come to the caucus and participate, that we're going to do very well.

RUSSERT: But without a big turnout, you could be in trouble?

OBAMA: Well, I, I think everybody's predicting a big turnout at this point. I mean, we have seen the kinds of enthusiasm and energy that is remarkable, and, and it's an indication of how badly I think people are looking for change right now. They understand that we can't keep on doing what we've been doing. They are responding to a message that we can bring the country together, that we can push the special interests and lobbyists out of setting the agenda in Washington, and they're particularly responding, I think, to the idea that we need some straight talk with the American people about how we're going to meet the challenges ahead.

RUSSERT: Let me turn to Pakistan. Do you believe the elections scheduled for January 8th should be postponed?

OBAMA: Well, I think it--the key is to make sure that there's legitimacy to those elections. And given the enormous tragedy that has happened, I think that it is understandable if those elections are delayed slightly. But, but it's important that they are not used--that this is not used as an excuse to put off, indefinitely, elections. And so my main concern is making sure that the opposition parties feel comfortable that they have the opportunity to participate in fair and free elections. That also means, by the way, that we reinstate an independent judiciary in Pakistan, that they are making sure that there is a free press, that the campaigning can proceed. Because our primary interest is making sure that whatever government emerges in Pakistan is viewed as legitimate. And one of the things that we haven't focused on is that the vast majority of the Pakistani people are moderate and believe in rule of law. That's who we want as allies in the fight against Islamic extremism.

RUSSERT: Benazir Bhutto was on MEET THE PRESS October of 2001, shortly after September 11th, and we're going to post that entire interview on our msnbc.com Web site, but she offered these words about General Musharraf. Let's listen.

(Videotape)

RUSSERT: If, in fact, there are elections a year from now, will you return back to Pakistan and run for prime minister?

MS. BENAZIR BHUTTO (Former Prime Minister, Pakistan): Well, I would very much like to return to Pakistan and run for prime minister again, and my party has been urging the military regime to have negotiations that can facilitate such a transfer. We would like General Musharraf to show me that I could return in safety and contest those elections.

(End videotape)

RUSSERT: "That I could return in safety." Do you believe that General Musharraf took the necessary precautions in protecting Mrs. Bhutto?

OBAMA: Well, look, I think an investigation has to be completed to determine how the suicide bomber got as close to the former prime minister as he did, what exactly happened. And that's why it's so important for us to ensure that we are providing all the assistance we can to the Pakistani government and that the Pakistani government is pressured to include opposition figures and, and people who are credible in the investigation process. Until we know exactly what happened, I think it would be premature to judge that. What I do know, though, is that, moving forward, we have to have credible elections and we have to continue to pressure the Musharraf government, as I said back in August, to focus on the problem of Islamic extremism in Pakistan. And the fact that al-Qaeda and the Taliban have taken root in the northwest provinces, it is now starting to spill over into the rest of Pakistan. This poses a grave danger. Benzair Bhutto herself recognized increasingly that this was one of the greatest threats to Pakistan and also to stability in the region and to the United States of America. And we have to ensure that whoever is in power is taking that process seriously.

RUSSERT: The Washington Post has said in an editorial that Mr. Obama committed a foul in some of your comments and some of your staff comments to the situation in Pakistan, specifically--let me ask you a question--do you believe that Senator Clinton's vote for, for the war in Iraq in any way, shape or form led to the events that transpired in Pakistan on Thursday?

OBAMA: Of course not, and that's never what any of my aides said. They responded to a question as to would this tragedy in Pakistan in some way advantage Senator Clinton as a consequence of her having been in Washington longer than I have. And my staff said that I think candidates will be judged based on the judgments they have made, and they made then an indisputable, I believe, comment, although The Washington Post, I think, may disagree with this. And that is that, by going into Iraq, we got distracted from Afghanistan, we got distracted from hunting down bin Laden, we got distracted from dealing with the al-Qaeda havens that have been created in northwestern Pakistan. This is not an assertion simply from our campaign. This is what military commanders on the ground have indicated. This is what our National Intelligence Estimates have shown, that al-Qaeda is stronger than at any time since 2001. And so if we are measuring who has the judgment to lead the country forward in dangerous times, I'm happy to put my record against those who have said, for example, that we will go along with President Bush on the war in Iraq.

RUSSERT: But a vote for the war in Iraq, in your mind, distracted us from Pakistan and that could have led to the situation?

OBAMA: I, I am not drawing a causal relationship between any single vote in the tragedy there. The, the tragedy resulted from a suicide bomber. But what I do believe is that, if we are going to take seriously the problem of Islamic terrorism and the stability of Pakistan, then we have to look at it in a lighter context. What we do in Iraq matters, what we do with respect to Iran matters, what we do with respect to Musharraf matters and not giving him a blank check and conditioning military aid that's not related to terrorism on him opening up the election so that there's greater legitimacy and less anti-American sentiment in Pakistan. Those are all parts of a broader foreign policy, and I believe that I'm best equipped to chart that new direction in foreign policy that will ultimately make American safer.

RUSSERT: You are a freshman senator, people have raised the issue of your experience, whether or not you're ready to be president. A former president by the name of William Jefferson Clinton addressed that very point.

OBAMA: Right.

RUSSERT: Let's watch "The Charlie Rose Show."

(Videotape)

FMR. PRES. BILL CLINTON: And we're prepared to roll the dice.

It's less predictable, isn't it? I mean, when's the last time we elected a president based on one year of service in the Senate before he started running, and he will have been a senator longer by the time he's been inaugurated. But, essentially, once you start running for president full time you don't have time to do much else.

(End videotape)

RUSSERT: Are we prepared to roll the dice? Is American rolling the dice on Barack Obama? You've been a senator just for a couple of years.

OBAMA: You, you know, people, I think here in Iowa have been lifting the hood, kicking the tires, asking all the candidates questions. And the reason that we are doing well is that they recognize that the real gamble is for us to keep on doing the same thing over and over again, accept the conventional Washington wisdom, expect that somehow we're going to get different results from that. They understand that if we want to solve healthcare, if we want to do something to make college more affordable, if we want a new foreign policy, then we have to have somebody who has a new vision for how we're going to move the country forward; somebody who has a track record of reducing special interests' and lobbyists' power in Washington; somebody who, on foreign policy issues, has shown the judgment that, in fact, bears out over time. And that's the kind of leadership that I've shown, that's the reason we're doing well, and I suspect that that's where the people of Iowa are going to want to see the country, in a new direction.

RUSSERT: But when someone says, Senator, you've never had an executive position, you've never had to make executive decisions, you've only been in the Senate just two years, why don't you wait? Why'd you have to run now?

OBAMA: You know, Dr. King talked about the fierce urgency of now. I think that there's such a thing as being too late. I don't want to wake up four years from now and find out we've been having the same arguments with the same lack of results. I don't want to find out that more people don't have health insurance or that once again we've sent our troops in to fight a war that didn't need to be fought because nobody had the judgment or courage to ask the tough questions. Now, I have great respect for former President Clinton, and I would expect that he would defend his wife; you know, he is on the campaign trail at this point. I would simply point out that the same arguments that are being made with respect to me were made with respect to him back in '91, '92. And I have more formal foreign policy experience than he did...

RUSSERT: But he had been governor for 10 years.

OBAMA: ...at the time. Well, but that's my point. My point is, what happens is that when Washington gets challenged with respect to change, then their immediate response is "You haven't been in Washington long enough." And the people of Iowa and the people of America, I think, recognize that there are other measures of leadership and there are other measures of experience than simply having been in Washington. And so my experience is rooted in the real lives of real people, and I think I'll be a--will bring real results if Americans have courage to change. And by the way, that's a quote from Bill Clinton back in 1991. He was right then; I'm right this time. I'm ready to lead this country in a new direction.

RUSSERT: You called Hillary Clinton the master of a broken system. What does that mean?

OBAMA: Well...

RUSSERT: She's the master?

OBAMA: Well, the--you can't argue that you have mastered Washington and that's why you are the best agent to bring about change. I mean, the, the fact is that I have consistently talked about taking America in a new direction, and I've also lived it on issues like campaign finance and lobbying reform. I passed the toughest ethics reform legislation since Watergate, preventing lobbyists from buying gifts and providing meals. And...

RUSSERT: But you also said the last time I was out here, at the Jefferson-Jackson dinner...

OBAMA: Right.

RUSSERT: ..."I will not allow a lobbyist to work in my White House"...

OBAMA: Right.

RUSSERT: ...and now you've changed on that.

OBAMA: No, I...

RUSSERT: You said they can work.

OBAMA: I haven't changed. Look, the terminology may have changed, the, the basic concept remains the same. I am going to break the revolving door that has become so commonplace in this administration and in some previous administrations. If you want to work in my White House, you will not be able to regulate former employers. And if you leave my White House, you will not be able to lobby agencies that you used to work for on behalf of folks that were regulated. That is the revolving door that has to be broken to give the American people confidence in, in their government.

RUSSERT: So if a lobbyist agreed to those terms, they could work in the White House?

OBAMA: Look, there are people who may have lobbied 10 years ago, 15 years ago. They may be able to render excellent service to the American people as long as they're clear that we want people of integrity and we want this link between you cashing in and you serving in government broken.

RUSSERT: Hillary Clinton gave an interview to the Iowa press where she talked about her own experience and what she had gone through, and her words were interesting. I want to play those and come back and talk about them. Here she is.

(Videotape)

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY): (December 14, 2007) I've been tested, I've been vetted, I have been in the, you know, political arena in our country very intensely for 16 years. There are no, there are no surprises. There are not going to be, you know, anybody saying, "Well, why didn't we think about" or what--"My goodness, what does that mean?"

(End videotape)

RUSSERT: "I've been tested, I've been vetted. There's no surprises."

OBAMA: Right.

RUSSERT: We've had a Clinton official in New Hampshire resign because he began to talk about your drug use as a, a young man. A Clinton official resigned here who talked about--on the Internet about your Muslim background.

OBAMA: Right.

RUSSERT: Have you been sufficiently tested and vetted? (Obama nods head) Are there any surprises? (Obama shakes head) Is there anything the American people should know?

OBAMA: There are no surprises, in part because the Clinton, the Clinton campaign has done a, I think, a thorough research job on us. If there was anything out there, I promise you, they would have found it by now, which is why they ended up resorting to some of the stuff that you're talking about. The only reason people know it is because I disclosed it. And some of it was completely false.

Now, look, I have been written about, I have been scrubbed, I have been vetted over the last year. I'm sure if you talk to my wife she could point out a few more flaws in my character, but the fact of the matter is that the people of Iowa and I think the people of America at this point know what I stand for. I'm in public service because I believe in the American people. I think that I--that if government is working well, we can knock down barriers to their American dream. The proposals and policies that I've put forward are ones that I've been putting forward for the last 20 years, and there's a consistency there, whether it's in terms of how we deal with the war in Iraq, how we deal with healthcare, how we deal with making sure that every child in America has the kind of education they deserve. When people look back on the track record--and, in fact, I think David Brooks in The New York Times wrote about it--they, they find that I have been consistent in my values and my ideals and the choices I've made in my life to be an organizer or a civil rights lawyer or to be a public servant. People, I think, can have confidence that I am who I say I am.

RUSSERT: Do you think these stories have successfully created an unease, an uncertainty, a doubt about you?

OBAMA: Well, I think there's no doubt that in the closing days of the campaign, you know, we've seen independent expenditures, groups that are providing outside assistance, running some negative ads against us, that may have some effect. But ultimately, I'm putting my faith in the people of Iowa and the people of America that they want something better.

And, Tim, I think the fact that I'm here in a position to win against people who've been campaigning in--for longer times and have much more sturdy organizations is a testimony to how badly people want something new, they want something different, and if they've got the courage to bring about those changes, in five days I think we can trigger a whole new kind of politics in this country and we'll chart a new course that will be better for the American people.

RUSSERT: In terms of candor, you're running a political ad in Iowa and elsewhere about healthcare. And this is what the ad says. Here's the Obama ad. Let's watch.

(Videotape)

OBAMA: I've got a plan to cut costs and cover everyone.

(End videotape)

RUSSERT: "Cover everyone." Every analysis of your healthcare plan says there are 15 million Americans who would not be automatically covered because you don't call for a mandate.

OBAMA: But, but, Tim...

RUSSERT: Let me just give you a chance to respond. Ron Brownstein, who's objective on this, wrote this for the National Journal, and then we'll come back and talk about it. He says this: "Obama faces his own contortions. He commendably calls for building a broad healthcare consensus that includes the insurance industry. But in the states, the individual mandate has been critical in persuading insurers to accept reform, including the requirement" "they no longer reject applicants with pre-existing health problems. If such a requirement isn't tied to a mandate, insurers correctly note, the uninsured can wait until they are sick to buy coverage, which" would "inflate costs for everyone else. By seeking guaranteed access without an individual mandate, Obama is virtually ensuring war with the insurance companies that he's pledged to engage."

OBAMA: Well, Tim, here's the philosophical debate that's going on. First of all, every objective observer says Edwards, Clinton, myself, we basically have the same plan. We do have a philosophical difference. They both believe the problem is the government is not forcing adults to get healthcare. My belief is that the real problem is people can't afford healthcare, and that if we could make it affordable, they will purchase it. Now, they assert that there're going to be all these people left out who are avoiding buying healthcare. My attitude is, we are going to make sure that we reduce costs for families who don't have health care, but also people who do have healthcare and are desperately needing some price relief. And we are going to reduce costs by about $2500 per family.

If it turns out that there are still people left over who are not purchasing healthcare, one way of avoiding them waiting till they get sick is to charge a penalty if they try to sign up later so that they have an incentive to sign up immediately.

RUSSERT: Which is a quasi-mandate.

OBAMA: But--well, no, it's not a quasi-mandate because what happens then is we are not going around trying to fine people who can't afford healthcare, and that's what's happening in Massachusetts right now. They've already had to exempt 20 percent of the uninsured, and you're reading stories about people who didn't have healthcare, still can't afford the premiums on the subsidized healthcare, but now are also paying a fine. That I don't think is providing a relief to the American people. We need to make health care affordable. That's what my plan does. And The Washington Post itself said, for the Clinton campaign to try to find an individual who wanted healthcare and could not get it under the Obama administration would be very difficult because that person probably does not exist. If you want healthcare under my plan, you will be able to get it, it will be affordable, and it will be of the high quality.

RUSSERT: Before you go, you related a conversation that you had with your wife, Michelle, that if you didn't run--win this time for president, you wouldn't run again.

OBAMA: Well, no, what my wife said is, "We're not doing this again." And...

RUSSERT: Is she right?

OBAMA: Well, the point she was making, I think, was an interesting one, which is, she said, one of the things that we bring to this race is we're not that far away from normal. You know, it wasn't that long ago that we were living in a small condo and it was getting too small for our kids, that we were trying to figure out how to save money for our children's college education and paying off student loans. That, I think, gives us some insight into what ordinary Americans are going through right now. Eight years from now, she isn't so sure that we won't be in a different orbit, and we won't have that same feeling for what people are going through.

RUSSERT: But if you don't win this time, would you run again?

OBAMA: Oh, Tim, we haven't even cast the--we haven't even had the first caucus in Iowa.

RUSSERT: Keeping that door open, huh?

OBAMA: I, I intend to win this time, that's why I'm running.

RUSSERT: Senator Obama, thanks very much for joining us and sharing your views.

OBAMA: Thank you.

Barack Obama, Interview with Tim Russert on NBC News' "Meet the Press" Online by Gerhard Peters and John T. Woolley, The American Presidency Project https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/node/278257

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