Barack Obama photo

Interview with Mika Brzezinski of MSNBC's "Morning Joe"

June 23, 2014

BRZEZINSKI: You said that the war was ended in Iraq.

THE PRESIDENT: Yeah.

BRZEZINSKI: You said al-Qaida was decimated.

THE PRESIDENT: Yeah.

BRZEZINSKI: You said it was stable.

THE PRESIDENT: It was. And -- but just because something's stable two years ago or four years ago doesn't mean that it's stable right now. And what we have is a situation in which, in part because of growing mistrust between Sunni and Shia, some of the forces that have always possibly pulled Iraq apart are stronger now. Those forces that could keep the country united are weaker. It is ultimately going to be up to the Iraqi leadership to try to pull the politics of the country back together again.

BRZEZINSKI: Would you have moved differently in Syria, given this eruption in Iraq and given that the chaos has spilled over now?

THE PRESIDENT: You know, if what you're suggesting is that there was a simple solution in Syria that would have avoided the civil war and chaos there, that's just not true. You know, you had a ruthless dictator that started killing his own people, and you had the makings of a moderate opposition that still exists and that we still work with, but not an opposition that was going to be in a position anytime soon to be able to compete with an army, Hezbollah, Iran and Russia supporting the regime.

They just weren't going to be able to do that. And they certainly weren't going to be able to immediately compete with a bunch of hardened jihadists who had moved into the vacuum in some of these areas. So, you know, I think that one of the things that the American people, at least, understand is that these societies are going through these enormous transformations.

There was a long period after World War II in which authoritarian regimes were able to maintain national boundaries, despite the fact that internally there were all kinds of sectarian divisions. As those regimes have begun to collapse or break apart, in part because of corruption, in part because of, you know, changes in society generally and economic pressures, you know, there is going to be this long, difficult transition moving to a different kind of society in the Middle East.

And what we can do is work with the best impulses there. Folks who understand moderation, tolerance, are trying to deliver for their people. We're going to have to deal with some of the worst impulses there, the extremism that ISIS represents. What we're not going to be able to do is to play Whac-A-Mole and chase wherever extremists appear, occupy those countries for long periods of time, and think somehow that we're going to solve those problems. That's something that, even as the world's lone superpower, exceeds our capabilities.

BRZEZINSKI: Does the situation in Iraq at all make you consider Afghanistan differently, especially as it pertains to taking the troops out by 2016?

THE PRESIDENT: No. I think that what we have done, assuming that the Afghans sign a security agreement that gives our troops immunity, which the Iraqis declined to do, we're prepared to have a residual force that helps to continue to train their forces, to continue to help stabilize the situation as you have a new government coming in.

But keep in mind that our goal in Afghanistan was to decapitate al-Qaida, which had carried out 9/11. That has been accomplished. Now Afghanistan is, you know, a sovereign country that is going to have to deal with its own security. That doesn't mean that there couldn't potentially be problems there, just as there are in Iraq.

Unless we are prepared to stay indefinitely in all these various countries, something that we can't afford and would involve, over time, accusations that we were occupying these countries, you know, at some stage they're going to have to take responsibility for working together.

BRZEZINSKI: Is this part of reality, going back into Iraq? Because you said that the war was ended in Iraq.

THE PRESIDENT: Yeah.

BRZEZINSKI: You said it was stable.

THE PRESIDENT: It was. And -- but just because something's stable two years ago or four years ago doesn't mean that it's stable right now. It is ultimately going to be up to the Iraqi leadership to try to pull the politics of the country back together again.

In the meantime, we've got an organization, ISIS, that has the ability to, you know, at least right now in western Iraq, cause a lot of havoc and violence, and over time could pose a serious threat to the United States. That doesn't mean that we reoccupy Iraq. It does mean that we're going to have to do our best to work with partners in the region, including hopefully a coherent Iraqi government, to slowly chip away at some of the advances that they've made.

BRZEZINSKI: Would you have moved differently in Syria, given this eruption in Iraq and given that the chaos has spilled over now?

THE PRESIDENT: You know, if what you're suggesting is that there was a simple solution in Syria that would have avoided the civil war and chaos there, that's just not true. You know, you had a ruthless dictator that started killing his own people, and you had the makings of a moderate opposition that still exists and that we still work with.

I think that one of the things that the American people, at least, understand is that these societies are going through these enormous transformations. And what we can do is work with the best impulses there, folks who understand moderation, tolerance, are trying to deliver for their people. We're going to have to deal with some of the worst impulses there, the extremism that ISIS represents.

What we're not going to be able to do is play Whac-A-Mole and chase wherever extremists appear, occupy those countries for long periods of time, and think somehow that we're going to solve those problems. That's something that, even as the world's lone superpower, exceeds our capabilities.

BRZEZINSKI: Do you think Prime Minister Maliki has demonstrated the ability to bring Iraq together, given what we've seen him do since 2006?

THE PRESIDENT: And what I said yesterday still holds, which is an election has just taken place. There's an opportunity to form a new government there. And the test now, not just for Mr. Maliki but for all the leadership in Iraq, is are they able to set aside their suspicions, their sectarian preferences, for the good of the whole? And we don't know.

The one thing I do know is that if they fail to do that, then no amount of military action by the United States can hold that country together.

BRZEZINSKI: Equal pay kicked off your presidency; two of the champions here in the room with us. It's become really a theme, one of the themes of your time here. Do you think there will be a day in our lifetime where women are paid equally across the board? And do we need the government to make that happen?

THE PRESIDENT: I think government can help. I think there's a whole series of actions that we can take that empower people to make sure they're being treated fairly, but also to give information to employers about what's good for their business.

Keep in mind that issues like equal pay for equal work, issues like child care, issues like workplace flexibility and paid family leave, those aren't just women's issues. Those are family issues. Women now account for 40 percent of the primary breadwinners among American families. You've got men who recognize that they'd like to spend time with their kids too.

There are very few families who have not gone through this. I know Michelle and I have. And when I think back to when Malia and Sasha were young, the biggest source of stress for us -- and we were a lot luckier than most -- was these issues surrounding work and family. You know, I'm away down at the state capitol. Michelle's back home. She's got her own job. A teacher calls. Sasha's sick. Then how do you deal with that? And that is the kind of thing that everybody, I think, can relate to.

BRZEZINSKI: Lifting up women is good for business, I think companies are finding. It's funny you talk about dads who want to spend time with their kids. When they leave work -- I wish you could do something about this -- and it's -- to be with their kids -- everyone's, like, oh, isn't that sweet?

THE PRESIDENT: Isn't that so sweet?

BRZEZINSKI: Yeah. He's amazing. Meanwhile, we're sneaking out --

THE PRESIDENT: Yeah.

BRZEZINSKI: -- hoping that no one notices that we're doing what we're supposed to do.

THE PRESIDENT: I think you're right. I think there's a little bit of a double standard there --

BRZEZINSKI: Totally.

THE PRESIDENT: -- where we now encourage men to reengage in their children's lives as if, you know, they're doing something special --

BRZEZINSKI: Yeah -- [inaudible].

THE PRESIDENT: -- whereas women, when they do it, oftentimes people say, you know, she's not fully committed to the job.

BRZEZINSKI: I had lunch with a CEO of one of the biggest companies in America the other day and he said the women just leave. They don't even ask. You know, they don't know how to ask or they feel bad about asking --

THE PRESIDENT: Yeah.

BRZEZINSKI: -- when what they should really be doing is saying here's the deal; I have so much value.

THE PRESIDENT: Right.

BRZEZINSKI: Here's what I'm going to need to make this work.

THE PRESIDENT: Yeah.

BRZEZINSKI: And he's, like, if they just ask.

THE PRESIDENT: Yeah, but part of that is creating a culture where people feel comfortable asking. And, you know, you mentioned something like equal pay.

BRZEZINSKI: Right.

THE PRESIDENT: You know, there are some folks who challenge the statistic that women get paid 77 cents on the dollar. They say, well, that's a choice that women are making. Well, first of all, real discrimination does take place. Second of all, oftentimes women are forced into choices that they shouldn't have to make. The question is, are we putting the burden entirely on women to make those choices? This is an issue not just for women. This is a family issue. This is a middle-class issue. This is an American issue.

Barack Obama, Interview with Mika Brzezinski of MSNBC's "Morning Joe" Online by Gerhard Peters and John T. Woolley, The American Presidency Project https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/node/309861

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