Interview With the President and Mrs. Carter Question-and-Answer Session With Barbara Walters of the American Broadcasting Company.

Ms. WALTERS. This is the Green Room of the White House, decorated for Christmas. We sit here today with President and Mrs. Carter to talk of the Nation, the world, and of themselves.

VIEWS ON THE PRESIDENCY

It was exactly 2 years ago today, on December 14, that I had the pleasure of talking with both of them in Plains, Georgia. And at that time, it was the first interview that they had done together since the election. And it is, today, the only interview that they have done together since that time.

At the conclusion of that conversation, I asked Mr. Carter if there was anything about his new life which gave him apprehension. And here is how his answer went. ¹

¹ ABC News later inserted a segment of the interview referred to by Ms. Walters in its broadcast of this interview.

Mr. President, have you in any way, do you think, disappointed the American people, or have you been disappointed in yourself?

THE PRESIDENT. I think our expectations have been realized for the first 2 years, Barbara. There are obviously many things that I do that disappoint certain Americans who would like to move more rapidly toward the goals that we've established for ourselves jointly.

I think our communications and understanding with the American people has continued in an uninterrupted vein, even following the 2 years of intensive campaigning. Our Nation has been at peace. No American has shed blood in a war or combat overseas. We've used our influence, I think, in a beneficial way to try to enhance peace in other parts of the world.

The pressing problem then was unemployment. And we have added a net increase of 7 million jobs to the American economic system. The welfare rolls have been cut down by 1.3 million, and the unemployment rate has dropped 25 percent. We still face the chronic problem of inflation, which hasn't been resolved rapidly enough. We're moving aggressively on it now. And I think I've learned Washington to some degree better than I thought I would, and have a good working relationship with the Congress.

We still have a major agenda ahead for continued peace, economic prosperity, and to enhance the Nation's influence around the world in a beneficial way.

So, I've got my hands full, but I'm pleased with the first 2 years.

Ms. WALTERS. Mrs. Carter, you and I talked a year ago, and at the time we talked about some of the problems the President was having. And you said you didn't think the people perceived him yet as a leader, but you were sure they were going to. Do they now?

MRS. CARTER. I think they do. And I think 2 years ago, when we talked, we were naturally a little bit apprehensive, because it was new to us and we had not been here. But I think you develop a growing confidence about what you're capable of doing. And also, I think at that time we maybe did not realize the breadth of counsel and advice that we would have, experts in all fields and the range of people that are willing to help us.

Ms. WALTERS. Mrs. Carter, your situation is somewhat unique, because the President has always said that you are an equal partner, and you sit in on Cabinet meetings. And tonight, if we ask some political or economic, or questions about foreign policy, I hope that you'll join in. And if you would like to argue with the President, we'd be just delighted. [Laughter]

PRESIDENT'S 1980 CANDIDACY

Mr. President, at your press conference on Tuesday—I'm going to start right in with, I think, questions about you that people care most about—you said that you'd made your decision whether or not to run again, but that you wouldn't reveal the decision until later. It is 2 days later. [Laughter] Is it late enough?

THE PRESIDENT. No, it's not. I think it's inappropriate now, when I've only been in office 2 years, to begin talking about future political plans, Barbara. It'll be much later than now.

Ms. WALTERS. Much later.

THE PRESIDENT. Yes.

Ms. WALTERS. A lot of people think you're being coy—

THE PRESIDENT. No.

MS. WALTERS. and that you really are going to run again, and, you know, why aren't you going to say it?

THE PRESIDENT. It's too early to make any political announcement about 1980 elections, whether I decide to run or not run. I'm not going to be coy. And I'll make the announcement when I think the political time approaches.

Ms. WALTERS. Will it be '79?

THE PRESIDENT. It may be the end of this year, but not before that—

Ms. WALTERS. Let me try once, just a little bit—

THE PRESIDENT. Not tonight.

Ms. WALTERS. Not tonight.

—with Mrs. Carter. There are a number of Democrats who might run if they thought your husband wasn't seeking reelection. They may be packing their bags right now. Should they unpack? You're a considerate woman. What do you think they should do?

MRS. CARTER. I don't worry about those. I think people who want to run for President—when Jimmy has run for office on other occasions, we announced it in time for speculation, in time for those to decide that wanted to run against him. But I agree with Jimmy that this is not the time to make the decision, because we don't want people just speculating about everything we're doing, being, preparing for another election. Right now we're doing what needs to be done at this time. And I think that's the way it should be.

Ms. WALTERS. Mr. President, as an astute politician, you have to be aware that people are talking about Senator Kennedy as a possible candidate. Okay, at this point, he says he's not going to run; we take him at his word. But if he does-oh, you're smiling. Do you take him at his word?

THE PRESIDENT. Yes. I take him at his word. But it was a real prospect that Senator Kennedy would run for President in 1976. When I decided to run several years ahead of time, I was not deterred by that prospect, nor by that of the candidacy of any other person. And I do take him at his word. But my decision will be made on whether I think I can do a good job for the American people, not on the fear or ease of a tough election.

Ms. WALTERS. If he ran, could you beat him?

THE PRESIDENT. I think if I should decide to run, that I would win, yes.

MRS. CARTER. I think Jimmy's going to be President for a long time.

Ms. WALTERS. I think you've answered our question without answering our question.

Which Republican would give you the toughest fight, do you think—Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, George Bush, John Connally, or somebody else, somebody new?

THE PRESIDENT. My experience in politics has been that almost every election is a tough election, very close. And if there are wide ranges in popularity at the beginning, the elections tend to narrow. I don't know why exactly. But I think that any nominee that Republicans would put forward would be formidable.

And the best way to win an election is to have a good record in your incumbency, job, and to be determined and tenacious, and, above all, to stay close to the American people. So, I think no matter whom the Republicans choose, the Democrats should be on their toes, willing for a tough campaign, and confident that ultimately we'll win, because we are the best party for the people.

Is. WALTERS. But is there any one whom you think would give you the toughest fight?

THE PRESIDENT. No, I wouldn't want to comment on that. If I did, I would want to choose the weakest.

Ms. WALTERS. Would you like to name the weakest?

THE PRESIDENT. [Laughing] No, I wouldn't.

ANTI-INFLATION PROGRAM

his. WALTERS. Mr. President, we do want to talk about what is going on in foreign policy and what's happening in the Middle East. But, to most Americans watching tonight, what the polls have shown and what I think most of us feel is that the major concern of the American people is inflation, is the shrinking pocketbook.

Now, President Nixon tried to tackle inflation, and he failed. President Ford tried with his WIN program, and he failed. There are many economists today, there are labor leaders and business leaders who feel that your program is inadequate.

As the audience sits out there tonight watching you, why should they have faith that you, Jimmy Carter, are going to make it?

THE PRESIDENT. We've got a sound economic system. We don't have the uncontrollable single factors involved in inflation that we had a few years ago.

The rapidly increasing prices of oil from overseas had quadrupled, as you know, in a short time, back in 1973. There's not a worldwide shortage of raw materials that forced up prices. And now the American growth rate—how rapidly our own economy is increasing—is becoming almost the same as those of our major trading partners. In the last few years, the American growth rate has been perhaps twice as great as most of our trading partners.

Also, we have escalated the anti-inflation fight to a top domestic priority. I inherited a very large Federal budget deficit, which was in 1976 about 4 percent of our gross national product. By the end of the 1980 fiscal year, which I'm working on now, that budget deficit will drop from 4 percent of our GNP down to 1 percent of our GNP, a very substantial improvement. At the same time, we have gotten, I think, good results from our employment program. And I think that recent statistics show that we can have this stringent anti-inflation program without causing a recession.

The last thing I'd like to say is that we have, in addition to proving my determination and effectiveness at the Federal Government level, we've had good response from business. And I think there will be growing response from labor as government and business prove that we mean business and can cooperate. I don't intend to fail.

Ms. WALTERS. A moment ago, you said that if Senator Kennedy did run for President, that you could beat him. What he is beginning to represent is the liberal or the side of certain groups, perhaps blacks and labor leaders and women, who say that in this inflation program, you are cutting many of the very important domestic social programs. Now, you have, particularly this week, been meeting with some members of those different groups. And they seem to feel more assured that you'll be able to keep the social programs.

Okay, which ones are you going to cut, and which ones can you assure them may still stay?

THE PRESIDENT. I can't answer that question tonight. I want to say that Senator Kennedy is a formidable political person, and I don't underestimate his effectiveness and his popularity. But the recent Democratic conference, I think, gave me strong support in my anti-inflation program, not because of unconcern or callousness about the disadvantaged, but because everyone realizes once they study the issue, that the most heavy burden of inflation falls on those who are disadvantaged, the retired person On a fixed income, the poor person who has maybe one job capability and cannot move about, the family that spends almost all of their income on the necessities of life. Those are the ones who suffer most from inflation.

And it's a complete fallacy, which ought to be wiped out, that controlling inflation works against the poor and the disadvantaged. The best thing that I can do for the poor and disadvantaged is to keep the social programs at a constant level or perhaps some modification to make them more efficient, on the one hand, and control the inflationary burden which falls most heavily on them.

DEFENSE SPENDING

Ms. WALTERS. Mr. President, right now you have a very difficult choice to make—there are always difficult choices, but one in particular—whether you stick to your commitment to raise the defense budget about 3 percent, a commitment you made to our NATO Allies; however, to cut this amount so that you can hold the Federal deficit to the $30 billion and also because you are cutting social domestic programs.

We've read that you have very strong advice on both sides. What are you going to do, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, I get strong advice on both sides of almost every issue, Barbara.

The paramount responsibility of any President is the security of the American people, the American Nation. I feel very strongly that I have got to maintain a strong defense. And I'm not going to yield in that commitment.

When I became President, I think it's accurate to say that NATO was weakened and also dispirited. There was a lack of conviction among our European allies and others that we were dedicated to a strong Western Europe, to withstand the potential threat from Eastern Europe and from the Soviet Union. I do not intend to go back on my commitment to NATO.

Ms. WALTERS. It will be approximately a 3-percent defense raise?

THE PRESIDENT. That's correct.

ROLE OF THE FIRST LADY

Ms. WALTERS. Mrs. Carter, as we talk, not just about these matters but about others which we will get to, you have now been in the White House for 2 years. Are there any policies of this administration or any change in the country which you feel reflect your advice to the President?

MRS. CARTER. Barbara, I don't consider myself a force in his decisions, but he does talk to me about the things that he's doing. And I feel compelled to disagree with him at times.-

Ms. WALTERS. Could you tell us why?

MRS. CARTER. —-to be supportive when I think he's right. I never have publicly disagreed with him, and I have a very good reason for doing that: because I know Jimmy well and I think that if I made our disagreements public, I would lose all my effectiveness with him. [Laughter] I don't think it would help, in any way change his mind about anything.

And while you're talking about the inflation and the social programs for the country, I was thinking about the thing that I'm interested in now, encouraging individuals in their communities to become involved in solving their own problems, because even with large government programs, when we have tried to cure the social ills with massive government programs, we haven't ever been able to do that. And I don't think there's ever going to be enough money. I don't think government can solve all the problems.

So, I'm going to be working, encouraging people in their own communities to assume responsibilities for the problems around them. And I think particularly, now with inflation, that it's going to be important, more important than ever before.

THE PRESIDENT. Barbara, let me say that Rosalynn's somewhat modest and, maybe, properly so because of the proprieties involved. But I don't hesitate to discuss with her every major decision that I have to make, unless it involves a vital and top secret security point, which I do not share with anyone.

But we had a special need to strengthen our ties, for instance, with Latin America. And Rosalynn went on a full diplomatic mission representing me personally and also representing the Nation. She was received hesitantly by some of the seven or eight leaders, but I think at the conclusion of those meetings, they now rely on her substantially to be sure that I understand the sensitivities of the people.

Ms. WALTERS. Still—you think they still do?

MRS. CARTER. They do.

THE PRESIDENT. They do. There's no doubt about that. And also when I'm confined to Washington because of pressing duties and she goes out within the United States, she has a much easier relationship with people and can bring back to me an accurate assessment of what the hopes and dreams and fears and concerns of American people are than I could get from any other possible source. So, she is a full partner in that respect.

Ms. WALTERS. Did she ever change your mind? Can you think of something where she disagreed and you switched?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, I think a change in emphasis, sometimes in domestic programs involving the elderly or mental health, she's a very effective spokesman, and I think the point she's just made has been a good reminder to me. When I was totally preoccupied with the Federal Government programs to deal with cities and to deal with other problems, Rosalynn continued to emphasize and finally convinced me that the best approach was to involve not only the mayors and the Governors but also just private citizens in dealing with community problems themselves. And she spends a lot of time on that and very effectively.

WAGE AND PRICE CONTROLS

Ms. WALTERS. I have one last question on the economy I'd like to ask, and you could almost take a yes and no. You've repeatedly stated your dislike of mandatory wage and price controls. But if Congress sends you legislation granting authority to impose such conditions, as they did with President Nixon in 1970, would you veto such legislation?

THE PRESIDENT. That would be an inconceivable prospect for me that the Congress would submit to me legislation that I opposed for wage and price controls. If it was a stand-by proposal that could only be used in case of a threat to our Nation's security itself, then I would consider signing it. But I have no desire for that kind of stand-by authority.

Ms. WALTERS. We'll be back in just a word. Thank you.

EGYPTIAN-ISRAELI PEACE NEGOTIATIONS

Mr. President, Mrs. Carter, may we turn our attention to foreign policy and start with the Middle East, which continues to be a situation that is unsettled.

It does not look now as if the December 17th deadline is going to be met for the peace agreement between Israel and Egypt. What now, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, I'm not giving up on the 17th deadline.

Ms. WALTERS. Really?

THE PRESIDENT. The decision is primarily in the hands now of the Israeli Cabinet. We have worked out with Sadat as approval by him of the treaty text, and the remaining issues involved how rapidly and under what circumstances the provisions of the Camp David accords shall be implemented.

One of the major issues is whether or not a goal should be set, not a fixed, definite requirement that the West Bank, Gaza self-government should be established by the end of 1979. I personally don't see how this could be difficult for the Israelis, since it's not mandatory, but just a goal to be sought. But the decision now is primarily in the hands of the Israelis. Secretary Vance has had thorough discussions with both Sadat and Begin and their other government officials. We don't know what will happen.

I consider the December 17th date to be quite significant. But if we don't succeed in getting an agreement by then-it's certainly a strong possibility—then we will continue tenaciously to pursue the peace prospects and to try to reach an agreement between Israel and Egypt at a later date.

Ms. WALTERS. How? Summit, maybe? What?

THE PRESIDENT. That's always a possibility. But that would not be my preference. I would certainly have no objection, and would encourage at any time President Sadat and Prime Minister Begin getting together themselves. But I think for them to plan on coming over here anytime in the future would probably be a mistake, because I've got other pressing international problems. And we've really put an extraordinary amount of time and effort in the Mideast, and I just cannot neglect other problems in order to accomplish this goal.

Ms. WALTERS. We've said that Secretary Vance was coming back to put pressure on the Israelis. Other reports said no, it was urgent business. What's the urgent business, if that's it?

THE PRESIDENT. We have got a broad range of things that are now coming to a head. We've got problems between Chile and Argentina concerning territory down there that could erupt into a conflict. We're trying to reach a conclusion on the Nicaraguan question.

I think that the SALT negotiations are coming to a head. Cy will be going to Europe to meet with Gromyko, on the 21st of December, perhaps to plan for a summit meeting between myself and President Brezhnev earlier next year. And there are just such a broad gamut of things that I need Secretary Vance back here. And he and I agreed in a telephone conversation that his work in the Mideast was primarily completed.

The proposition that has been worked out with Egypt is presented clearly to the Israelis. And now it's up to the Israelis to either accept it or reject it.

Ms. WALTERS. You talked of President Sadat being generous in accepting some of the proposals. You didn't mention Prime Minister Begin. This was last night that you said this. Do you consider Mr. Begin to be intransigent?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, we don't know what the Israeli response will be.

Ms. WALTERS. I spoke with Israel this morning, with some key members in Foreign Minister Dayan's office, with his spokesman. And without going through each detail, what they are saying is that they were willing to sign the original agreement, but that President Sadat is now adding new conditions which they consider open up and change the treaty. And, particularly, they object to the fact that the Egyptians are not going to agree to normalization of relations and exchange of ambassadors until 1 year after Palestinian autonomy. And they say that this is not what was originally agreed to, all these new conditions.

THE PRESIDENT. That's not accurate. The way I understand the recent negotiations, at the time the Israelis complete the interim withdrawal, diplomatic relations would be established between Egypt and Israel. The embargo against Israel would be removed, and then when the self-government is established-within a month, not a year—ambassadors themselves would be exchanged.

The original proposal was that Israel would withdraw from El'Arish and from the central part of the Sinai in the interim withdrawal, much earlier than the Camp David accords required, in 2 months and 4 months. Based on that commitment by Israel negotiators, Sadat said he would exchange ambassadors at that time, a month later. Later Israel's Cabinet withdrew their proposal and therefore relieved President Sadat of the obligation to exchange ambassadors early.

But I think that that's a reasonable schedule. Diplomatic relations would be established with Israel immediately, as soon as they made their first interim withdrawal. It's only the exchange of ambassadors themselves that would be delayed.

Ms. WALTERS. Mr. President, if the Middle East talks fail and if you feel that Israel is not forthcoming, might there be a reassessment of the United States policy in Israel?

THE PRESIDENT. No. Our policy with Israel is—and with the Middle East—is that the security of Israel is paramount; the continued existence of Israel, their ability to protect themselves adequately, and the ability of the Israeli people to live in peace is paramount above anything else that relates to the Mideast.

Ms. WALTERS. In that regard, Israel was reported to be very upset when hearing that Senate Majority Leader Byrd had said that if Israel builds future settlements, the Senate may not increase its foreign aid to Israel. The Israelis said that Senator Byrd came to Israel recently, describing himself as your emissary. And one wonders if the Senator's statement reflects your point of view.

THE PRESIDENT. [Laughing] I have never attempted to control Senator Byrd's statements. And I think Senator Byrd speaks from the perspective of the Congress and as the Democratic leader of the Senate.

We have always, so far as I know, adopted as an official American position, with which I agree, that the settlements in the occupied territories are illegal and that they are a genuine obstacle to peace. And whenever the Israelis publicize with varied voices that there will be $35 million spent on new settlements or a billion dollars spent on new settlements or another new settlement's going to be created, it really puts a dampener on cooperation from the Jordanians, from the Palestinians who live in the West Bank, and even from the Egyptians in carrying out the spirit of Camp David.

I know it's a very sensitive issue with Israel. I'm not saying this in a critical way, but I can say with assurance that the Majority Leader was speaking for himself.

Ms. WALTERS. That does not represent your viewpoint?

THE PRESIDENT. Not necessarily. The attitude of the Congress is, I think, not something that I ought to comment upon. I can't say whether I agree or disagree that the majority leader speaks accurately for the Congress.

Ms. WALTERS. What now, Mr. President? Do you plan perhaps to call or have you already telephoned either Prime Minister Begin or President Sadat? Tomorrow there's a Cabinet meeting. What's going to happen maybe to get something either by this Sunday or soon after?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, it's hard for me to answer that question. I've not received any report from Secretary Vance, except very brief dispatch messages. And he will be back in the United States tomorrow afternoon. Of course, as soon as he returns, he'll come and give me a thorough report. But we've done all we could and will continue to do all we can in spite of setbacks and disappointments and frustrations and delays.

We are very deeply committed to carrying out both the letter and the spirit of Camp David. It was a major step forward. We will never give up, no matter how difficult the circumstances, on searching for a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt, to be followed by peace between Israel and all her neighbors.

IRAN

Ms. WALTERS. Mrs. Carter, I hate for us to have to jump from one part of the world to the other, but we have less than an hour in which to talk.

So often when the news comes in about Iran, I remember New Year's Eve, because you and the President spent New Year's Eve in Iran and many reporters like myself were with you. And the President, in his toast at that time, said Mrs. Carter had said this is where she wanted to be New Year's Eve, with the Shah and Empress.

I wonder if you personally have talked with them and what your view is of them, of the Shah in particular, as a ruler?

MRS. CARTER. I have not talked with them, but I've had correspondence back and forth with Empress Farah. I think they need our support now more than ever. I just feel very concerned about the situation. We had a wonderful visit with them last year. And New Year's Eve was special, because after all the formalities and the dinner, we relaxed with them and with their friends and with a lot of you all, and just enjoyed being there.

THE PRESIDENT. And King Hussein was there.

MRS. CARTER. King Hussein was there. And it was a fun evening for us, and it's sad that this has happened in the period of 1 year's time.

Ms. WALTERS. Mr. President, there are reports that you've recently sent messages to the Soviet Union, warning them to keep hands off of Iran. Can you confirm these, and can you tell us if you have any information on Russian involvement in Iran?

THE PRESIDENT. Yes, that's accurate.

Ms. WALTERS. You have sent the letters?

THE PRESIDENT. Yes. President Brezhnev and I exchanged messages.

MS. WALTERS. Recently?

THE PRESIDENT. Within the last few weeks, a couple of weeks. And I made it very clear to them, to the Soviets, that we have no intention of interfering in the internal affairs of Iran and that we have no intention of permitting others to interfere in the internal affairs of Iran.

I think it's good to point out, Barbara, that Iran has a 2,500-year history of statecraft, of managing their own affairs properly. Obviously, they've had ups and downs, as we have in our own country. But there's a certain stability there, a certain inclination and capability of the Iranians to govern themselves that I think is a stabilizing factor. We don't know what changes will take place. Ms. WALTERS. Have the Russians been involved, sir, that you know of?

THE PRESIDENT. As far as we know, they have not. We monitor the situation closely. Obviously, there is a Communist party there, the Tudeh party, which perhaps is inclined to encourage violence or disruption in order to change the existing government. But the Shah is communicating with opposition leaders. He is committed to a broader base for the government. He is working toward democratic principles and social change. And he has been embattled lately. And we obviously support him fully.

Ms. WALTERS. When we talk about support, what do we mean today, 1978, post-Vietnam, by support? For example, if the Shah does fall, it threatens our oil supply, it threatens Israel's oil supply, it threatens Saudi Arabia, it threatens the whole Persian Gulf. At what point would support turn into action and what kind of action, if any?

THE PRESIDENT. I am not prepared to answer that question.

Ms. WALTERS. Because there is no answer, or because—

THE PRESIDENT. Well, the answer is difficult. But I think just conjecturing on something that's hypothetical like that, assuming all the catastrophes that might possibly occur in the Persian Gulf, is something on which I don't want to comment. I don't think it's going to happen. And if I were to surmise that if it happens, we would do this, it would be interpreted by some as an actual prediction by me that it's going to happen, and I don't think it's going to happen.

Ms. WALTERS. IS support primarily verbal support?

THE PRESIDENT. NO. We have treaty agreements with Iran. We have strong defense agreements with Iran. We look on Iran, as do their neighbors, as being a stabilizing factor. Even the Soviet Union shares a long border with Iran. I'm sure they want stability there on their border. Exactly the formation of the government—I can't speak for the Soviets, but I think that for world peace and for the Soviets, and for us, certainly for the entire Middle East-Persian Gulf region, a stability is desirable, and that's what we want, also.

HUMAN RIGHTS

Ms. WALTERS. Mr. President, I want to move—talking about Iran—move to human rights, because some highly placed Iranians close to the Shah have said that your insistence on human rights was a factor in weakening his position. And Henry Kissinger, in a recent interview, said, and I quote, that your human rights campaign is "a weapon aimed primarily at allies and tends to undermine their domestic structure"—a strong statement.

THE PRESIDENT. [Laughing] I haven't had any screams of outrage from our allies about our human rights position. It's been clear. It's been public. It's been consistent and well-advised. And I think I speak accurately for the American people in saying that a United States commitment to the enhancement of human rights on a worldwide basis is a sound policy.

There was a very long and thorough debate, for instance, within the NATO Council earlier this week about the advisability of the human rights stand being strongly pursued throughout the world. And there was a consensus among our NATO Allies—approximately 15 nations-that this was a policy that was well-advised for the Western democratic world. And there are many people on the other side of the so-called Iron Curtain who also agree that the strong human rights policy should be pursued, and it will be.

Ms. WALTERS. Sometimes in this area you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. I hear the other side. People said to me, "You're going to interview the President. Okay, ask him why he doesn't pursue human rights in the Philippines. Ask him why he doesn't do it in Chile. Ask him why he waited so long in Iran." You get both sides.

THE PRESIDENT. Well, I think if you would talk to President Marcos or to President Pinochet that you would find that they have felt the influence of the United States toward enhanced human rights. We also are constantly reminded in our own country that because we have espoused so strongly the human rights commitment, that we reassess what we do in the United States, to be sure we don't violate basic human rights.

And this is an issue now that has become almost a worldwide obsession. I doubt that any world leader goes through a day that he or she doesn't think, "How are we measuring up in world opinion, in the opinion of my own constituents or citizens, as related to my performance on human rights?" I think it ought to be a burning issue.

Ms. WALTERS. Even Mr. Marcos—because that's where you've been criticized, since he's an ally—

THE PRESIDENT. Yes, yes, I think even Mr. Marcos, yes. But I don't want to single him out. There are many, many others. And there have been thousands of people released from prison—I don't want to take credit for it—but I think because there's a growing awareness of the need for human rights.

MRS. CARTER. And I think it's given hope to people all over the world. I see it in traveling, the difference in attitude of people toward our country. I think there's a trust and respect for our country now that was not there before.

Ms. WALTERS. We'll return and talk about some personal matters. I don't know whether that will be easier or harder to answer. We'll be right back.

STRATEGIC ARMS LIMITATION

Mr. President, we seem to be very close to a SALT agreement, and there comes in this the whole question of, can we trust the Russians. The fight in Congress looks as if it's going to be a very tough fight. Some people say it's going to make the Panama Canal debate look like a Sunday school picnic. How do you reassure Congress and the people?

THE PRESIDENT. The SALT agreement, when concluded—and I think it'll be quite soon—will be in the best interests of our country. It will enhance our own security. And whether we trust the Soviets or not, we will have an adequate ability to verify whether or not they comply. So, the American people need not be concerned about that.

Ms. WALTERS. Do you think Congress is going to pass it?

THE PRESIDENT. I believe so, because it's in the best interests of our country. And I think that Congress wants to do what's in the best interests of our country.

Ms. WALTERS. I said that we were going to discuss personal matters. I'd just like to ask a couple of catchall questions before we do.

PATTY HEARST

Mr. President, do you have any plans to pardon Patty Hearst?

THE PRESIDENT. I don't have any plans to treat Patty Hearst as a special case. From time to time, I get recommendations from the Attorney General to change the sentence of dozens of people—some- times as many as 75 or 80. I always look them over, assess the reasons for the Attorney General's recommendations, and, almost without exception, comply with his recommendation. But I think to treat her as a special case because she is wealthy and her case has been highly publicized would be a mistake. She'll be treated in a routine fashion when the time comes.

Ms. WALTERS. Mrs. Carter, let me ask you, as a mother, how you feel. Have you given the President any advice in this? Is it something you've discussed.

MRS. CARTER. I'm aware of it, and we, I think, have mentioned it a time or two. But we have not discussed it, no.

Ms. WALTERS. Maybe tonight?

MRS. CARTER. Not tonight. [Laughter]

ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS

Ms. WALTERS. DO you plan any new faces in your Cabinet or in the first string of your administration, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT. I hope not. I would like to finish my 4-year term and have the same Cabinet that I started with. They are all good.

Ms. WALTERS. And the same people in the White House?

THE PRESIDENT. I don't have any plans to change the people in the White House.

Ms. WALTERS. NOW that Hamilton Jordan's wearing a suit and tie? [Laughter]

THE PRESIDENT. I might want to improve some of them, but not move them.

VIEWS ON THE PRESIDENCY

Ms. WALTERS. Mr. President, you said that, when you campaigned, that you would never tell a lie. Well, have you ever told a lie since then, even a tiny white lie, even for national security?

THE PRESIDENT. Not that I can recall. I think one of the biggest responsibilities that I have is to build up confidence in the Government and the Presidency itself. If I should ever tell a lie, even though it would be a small and perhaps inconsequential one to enhance our national security at the particular moment, and later be caught as a liar, it would cast doubt on all the truthful things that I said. And I have never been tempted, in this 2 years, to lie to the American people or to any individual news reporter about a matter that concerned our national security or a matter that concerned any public event.

Ms. WALTERS. Mrs. Carter, I remember we talked 2 years ago about some misconceptions about both you and the President. What, if any, misconceptions do you think that the public or the press has now?

MRS. CARTER. I don't know, Barbara. I think the press has been very fair to me, those who are with me and see me on a daily basis, in presenting what I'm trying to do to the public.

Ms. WALTERS. What about the President? Is he coming off okay?

MRS. CARTER. I think so. I think in the beginning, the press didn't understand him, didn't know what he was trying to do. But I think that we're changing that. I think with the successes that he had in Congress and the things that he has tried to do that have actually come to fruition, people are seeing, the press is projecting what he actually is doing.

Ms. WALTERS. DO you think there are any misconceptions about you, sir?

THE PRESIDENT. I think the misconceptions are decreasing in number. One of the frustrations and challenges and maybe difficulties of being President or a member of the First Family is to have good communication with the American people in both directions, both to learn what the American people think, what they want, and what they expect of us, and also to project accurately what we are trying to do.

And there are obviously many reports that come out in a newspaper, perhaps on a television program, that are completely erroneous, just based on facts that are wrong. And we try to correct those. But I think that the doubt and suspicion about me, because I had not ever lived in Washington, not ever served in the Federal Government, and was a southerner, a Baptist, most of those have been alleviated now with better communication and knowledge of what I have done and a record to be assessed.

And ! think there's been a fairly good transition after some, about a year of rough places with the press and with the public. I feel better now than I did 6 months ago.

MRS. CARTER. There are still some frustrations, things that we—they're not misconceptions, but frustrations about things that we want people to know.

Something that happened this week to me, for instance—I went to the opening of a conference on childhood immunization. Joe Califano started a program last year. I called him because I was concerned about it. And Mrs. Dale Bumpers, who's a good friend of mine—her husband was Governor of Arkansas while Jimmy was Governor, now he's in the Senate—had worked on childhood immunization for years. And so we called on Joe Califano. He started a program last April.

The results of that have been dramatic. And we had a meeting this week to talk about what is happening in the country-the immunizations have gone up, the incidence of disease has dropped. We had a great conference, a great meeting. We didn't read one word about it.

It's not so important that I get publicity or that people know what I'm doing. But when people see that and read it, then those who have children who have not been immunized will think about it; it'll focus some attention on it. So, those kinds of frustrations we have.

Ms. WALTERS. Well, stories are selective, and it's usually the more sensational ones. And the public complains to the press about that as well.

CHIP AND CARON CARTER

You've talked a great deal about what you've enjoyed in the White House and that, if anything, it's given you two more time to be together, more time with Amy. But one does wonder sometimes about the price that one pays when a husband and a father becomes President.

And I almost feel funny about asking you this, except that it has been written about and talked about so much, and that's the separation of your son Chip and your daughter-in-law Caron, which obviously must grieve you as parents. And it's been suggested that if he had not lived in the White House, that if he had not been exposed to some of the social conditions of living in this city—I'm sure you have read this—that perhaps it wouldn't have happened.

Do you feel a particular responsibility? Do you feel that this may have been the case?

THE PRESIDENT. DO you want me to answer it or Rosalynn? Go ahead, Rosalynn.

MRS. CARTER. I don't think because we live here we are immune from problems that other families have. But I think our family has grown closer together because of the experiences we share. And I love Chip and I love Caron, and I want them both to be happy.

I think that we made some statements about their decision at the time and have not said anything more public about it. But I don't think the—I have been very proud of my children in the way they have reacted. I think they are dependable and responsible, and they've represented our family well. They've represented the country well when they've traveled abroad. And I think things that happen to them, I think they try to lead as normal a life as anybody else.

THE PRESIDENT. We still pray that their marriage will be saved. And they've asked that it not be discussed publicly, and I think it's better for us not to discuss it.

Ms. WALTERS. Fine, sir.

EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT

Let us talk about something that you are involved in as a First Lady and as a woman, Mrs. Carter, and that's the ERA. You've devoted so much time to it. And it seems to be in trouble getting these last three States to ratify.

What do you think can be done? And in your heart of hearts, do you think it's going to pass?

Mrs. CARTER. I don't know. If I have had a failure, I think that not being able to ratify the equal rights amendment has been the failure in these past 2 years, because it is so important and we just can't seem to get the message across about it.

We are working very hard now to formulate plans for educating people about what the equal rights amendment is, because I think when people know what it is, they will be for it, that the opposition is so distorted about it and we want to clear up

Ms. WALTERS. You're still going to continue to work for it.

MRS. CARTER. That's right. And we were fortunate to get the extension. And I hope that in the next 3 years, we can ratify it.

THE PRESIDENT. And I believe we can. Don't you?

MRS. CARTER. I'm hopeful, I'm very hopeful.

Ms. WALTERS. At the mini-convention, there was a resolution that didn't come to the floor at the mini Democratic convention and that is to push for—that the next Supreme Court Justice be a woman. Are you pushing for that? Is that on your top priority, Mrs. Carter?

MRS. CARTER. Well, the opportunity has not arisen yet. [Laughter] But I agree with the resolution.

Ms. WALTERS. You do?

PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA

Mr. President, any plans to travel? We know you're going to Guadeloupe. Any plans perhaps to go to China in 1979—so many different things happening there, many different new positions.

THE PRESIDENT. Barbara, the position that I've taken is that both President Nixon and President Ford have gone to China. The Chinese leaders have not seen fit to come here. And I don't intend to go to China until after the Chinese leaders come here.

Ms. WALTERS. Do the changes in China, which seems to be even to a small degree a somewhat more democratic process, allow you to think that we may have any changes in our policy in 1979?

THE PRESIDENT. We have already made great improvements in our relationships with China in recent months because of the changes you describe, with trade missions, increased relationships in research, development, exploration of energy possibilities with them jointly, primarily with the private business community in our own Nation, agricultural assessments, their visits here. This year there are large numbers of Chinese students who will come to our country and to others, which was not the case in the past. So, I think that the opening up of China is beneficial to our country and to the world. I'm very pleased with it.

Ms. WALTERS. But you don't expect full diplomatic relations in the next year-or do you?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, that's something that we are pursuing in accordance with the Shanghai Communiqué. Our position has been made clear to Premier Hua and Deputy Premier Teng, and whenever the Chinese are ready to move, we are.

BERT LANGE

Ms. WALTERS. Mr. President, at the opening of this program, we talked about disappointments, possible disappointments that you might contribute to the American people. And you felt that there were not. But in your personal life, one of the disappointments that we're all aware of must have been what happened to your good friend, Mr. Lance.

THE PRESIDENT. Yes.

Ms. WALTERS. In view of the fact that these investigations continue into allegations of possible misdeeds or illegalities, would you still give him your unqualified support, as you did a year ago?

THE PRESIDENT. Yes, I would.

Ms. WALTERS. Would you still say you were proud of him, as you did a year ago?

THE PRESIDENT. I am proud of him. Bert is a fine, decent human being. He has probably been investigated with as concentrated an effort as anyone who's ever served in government, with the possible exception of President Nixon during the Watergate trials.

And I don't know anything about the details of the investigations, the technicalities of the law, and so forth. But Bert did some things which he's acknowledged, like using the bank's airplane, along with customers, to go to the Sugar Bowl game when the University of Georgia played there. It was a technical violation of the law. I'm not trying to make a judgment on what the investigations will reveal. But I know Bert Lance, have confidence in him, and I hope the investigations prove that he is not guilty of any violation of the law, whether technical or otherwise.

Mrs. CARTER. He's just a good person.

THE PRESIDENT. He really is.

1976 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN

Ms. WALTERS. Would you like to clear up a whispered allegation-

THE PRESIDENT. Okay, I'll try.

Ms. WALTERS. is this a good time

THE PRESIDENT. Sure.

Ms. WALTERS. —-just before Christmas, when people are feeling generous?

Your peanut business enjoyed a $5 mil-

lion line of credit from Mr. Lance's bank. THE PRESIDENT. Yes.

Ms. WALTERS. Now, during the course of the grand jury investigation, there have been some whispered suggestions that some of this money may have found its way illegally into your Presidential campaign. I'm sure you've heard this.

THE PRESIDENT. That is absolutely false.

Mrs. CARTER. Absolutely.

Ms. WALTERS. I just wanted to give you the opportunity to assure the American people.

THE PRESIDENT. Absolutely false. Every source of money that came into our campaign has been thoroughly revealed, I think, on a monthly basis, all during the campaign. And we never were inclined to put warehouse money into the campaign at all. As a matter of fact, I have a lot more of my personal money in the warehouse than I needed to and it was never taken out for that purpose.

BILLY CARTER

Ms. WALTERS. How did you feel, Mr. President, when your brother Billy told reporters that he took the fifth amendment before a grand jury investigation into the banking securities of Bert Lance? There's brother Billy again.

THE PRESIDENT. If there's one thing I can say, I have enough responsibility trying to be the President of the United States than to be my brother Billy's keeper. He's got a mind of his own and a voice of his own.

I have never discussed this with Billy, because I've pledged to stay away from my business affairs while I'm President. But his explanation was that he was asked by the grand jury to bring records for certain dates of negotiations and business transactions. And when the grand jury asked him about data from other dates of the year, where he didn't have the records, that's when he refused to answer the questions. I presume that's accurate.

VIEWS ON THE PRESIDENCY

Ms. WALTERS. Let's end this section on a happier note. As you look back on these past 2 years, what—if you had to write it in a book, in that first chapter-and I said the happiest day

THE PRESIDENT. The happiest?

Ms. WALTERS. Yes.

THE PRESIDENT. Well, I think the happiest day was when we came back from Camp David with the agreement.

Mrs. CARTER. I think that would have to be.

THE PRESIDENT. And perhaps the unhappiest day was earlier that day— [laughter] —3 hours before we left Camp David, when I thought the whole thing had failed. So, there were ups and downs then.

But in general, our first 2 years in the White House have been very pleasant, and there's a warmth here brought about by history, by our own family relationship, and by my relationship with the American people, which we deeply appreciate and enjoy. And I hope the whole Nation and the whole world will have the same warmth of spirit, love for one another, commitment to peace and harmony and the realization of the ideals of our country as Christmas approaches, that I feel now in the White House.

Ms. WALTERS. We'll be back with just one more question, Mrs. Carter, Mr. President.

Mr. President, Mrs. Carter, we have one final question. The day you left Plains, Georgia, January 19, 1977, still a private citizen but on your way to your inauguration, our White House correspondent, Sam Donaldson—you know Sam Donaldson—asked if you thought you would be a great President. And you answered, "Yes, I will be. I am going to be a great President."

It is now 2 years later, Mr. Carter. Are you a great President?

THE PRESIDENT. [Laughing] Well, one of the things that prepared me for the difficulties and the challenges and the vicissitudes of being President was Sam Donaldson's constant questions during the campaign for 2 years. [Laughter]

Ms. WALTERS. He'll be delighted to hear that.

THE PRESIDENT. They're always difficult to answer.

It's much too early for me to say whether I'll be a good or a great President. That's still my determination and my goal, not for historical glory, but just to make sure that our Nation is greater because I've been President.

I've not given up on it. But it's too early to make that judgment.

Mrs. CARTER. I think he's a great President. I think he's going to be a great President. He's strong and courageous and competent. And I think people already see that he fights for what he believes in. He doesn't worry about political consequences. I just think he's a great President already.

THE PRESIDENT. You can see why I love her. [Laughter]

Ms. WALTERS. I can see why there are many people who are going to be particularly happy that you joined this interview. I wish you happy holidays, and I thank you for being with us today.

THE PRESIDENT. Same to you, Barbara. Thank you.

MRS. CARTER. I enjoyed it.